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Chapter 9
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Amaunator



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
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Location: Belgium ... innocuous but intrepid!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if it's OFFICIAL lore, that doesn't mean that I should believe it because they can't keep their facts straight... It happened with the Draenei not too long ago, and it happened before with the NE to make it all seem to be more uniform than it actually is.
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Cangjku



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 713
Location: back in wisconsin

PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please point us to your lore source Amaunator. We have pointed you to ours, and I am not actually sure the book we speak of is just in Booty Bay, I think I read my copy in the inn in Ratchet, it may even have been the Library in Ironforge, I don't actually remember.

I also think I have read some other internet sorces saying the exact same thing, the night elves evolved from a band of trolls some 10,000 years ago that happended to find the well of eternity and drink from it. At that point they evolved into their present incarnation of the night elves aka the Kaldori.

Lore will change in any story that is evolving over significant lengths of time. Warcraft lore has been in evolution for what? Nearly 10 years now or is it longer? Even the present incarnation of the drenai, though a bit of a stretch, mostly in their now created relation to the burning legion, is still within reason since there was actually very little known about the history of the Drenai. All they really were was some ugly looking race from Draenor that helped Ilidan in the Frozen Throne expansion.

Admitedly Drenai does imply to me an origin on Dreanor, and quite possibly the origional native race. I can't really say though, for all I know the Drenai/Ereadar may have simply named Draenor (home of the Exiled ones perhaps?) for themeselves when they found it and the native orcs decided to take that name for their world as well because it was easier to pronounce than whatever it was they called the planet. that change could have happened so long ago that the orcs simply cannot remmeber their origional name for their world.

As for Albatros, a very nice chapter. Much thoughtful stuff. interesting take on the night elves, having them devolve, though my personal though has always been that they were simply going to go all evily red eyed, like the orcs once were, because the burning legion, which had begun to influence Teledrasil, got involved and offered them the imortality that some sought. I also must admit that I never really thought that Nordrasils magic was disipated and lost, it was just... redirected to the sort of passive magic you might say exists in our modern, Terran, earthly reality.

Interesting thoughts though, very interesting thoughts.
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Aidinthel



Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cangjku wrote:
I never really thought that Nordrasils magic was disipated and lost, it was just... redirected to the sort of passive magic you might say exists in our modern, Terran, earthly reality.
Whoa. Shocked That's deep.
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Saranus



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know for a fact that the book is in the Gadgetzan inn. It's probably in all those other places too.

I also think it would be cool for Horse to go to at least one of the big goblin towns. Maybe he will go to Ratchet in one of the shorts. Goblin towns have always had a special appeal for me with their no-rules-anything-goes kind of feeling.
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Onokos



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is that why nobody's heard of the night elves for centuries? Because they were too ashamed of devolving that they shut themselves out of the world?

Another note ... in the story Katy M is seven hundred years old but she makes this comment about Ashenvale:

Story wrote:
“Did you ever go there?” I said. “Did you see it before it died?”

“Of course not,” answered M, blinking stonily. “That was more than six hundred years ago.”


Seems kind of weird that he says it's obvious he wasn't there when it seems like he was alive at the time. I know it probably occured just as he joined the law, but it's still plausible that he was alive at the time. (I keep typing she for some reason. Wink )
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Last edited by Onokos on Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Fat squirrel



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M IS a she. And the reason she said she wasn't there is because the Hyprogriph doesn't know she's immortal and she want's to keep it that way.
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Aidinthel



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't go announcing to everyone that she's an agent of the Law, can she? Rolling Eyes
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Slashtrain



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very interesting chapter... that's all i'm going to say since all the arguments seem to have resolved themselves.
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Amaunator



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no source but common sense... If there is lore it's bound to be messed up by people 'posting sources'. I have my common sense, which tells me that it's strange that a band of trolls only migrated to the well and nowhere else in Eastern Kalimdor, while there were also forests there...
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Scaramoosh



Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also while your common sense is a nice basis for argument, you can't point to it for refrence and expect others to believe you.

It is in the lore that Night Elves did evolve from Trolls. If you don't like that they're the only trolls in Kalimdor think of it this way. Maybe there was a rival group of trolls that came to Kalimdor along with the Night Elf band. We've known for a long time that the Night Elves and Trolls hate each other, so who's to say that the early night elves didn't wage war agaisnt the other bands of Trolls and decimate them with their newfound powers granted to them by the well of eternity?

Trolls are also known for being the first practitioners of Voodoo, or higher magic in any form from a sentient race on Azeroth. It could be that the well felt the "ripples" of that primitive magic, and called out to that specific band of Trolls.

It could be that this group of Trolls was exiled from their clan and knowing nowhere they could travel, they took to the sea in hopes of finding a place for themselves.

Hell, maybe a strange pink man, dressed in Raven feathers, from the future told them that their destiny was to be found across the ocean in a land known as Kalimdor.

With all of these possibilites, and the fact that this world is a work of PURE FICTION, your common sense doesn't mean squat.

Sorry.
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Amaunator



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never stated anywhere that I had any reference:

The only real reference I made was the 'before', because before WoW they (NE) were hardly mentioned in the lore except for WC3.

All the rest is speculation and product of my own mind.

I have my own opinion, and if I think that the lore creators were very unoriginal and trying to tie up loose ends, then that's my opinion. For you to take or leave as you wish.

That it is a work of fiction is quite surprising, I had no idea! I was too busy hustling about to get my next quest done...

The fact that the lore can be altered any given moment if the authors so please it, also means that, in the end, everything we say means squat.
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Scaramoosh



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed and well spoken. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Farsider



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the lore creators were very original and refreshing in making the elves the bastard mutant reject offspring of headhunting voodoo trolls. High Fantasy so often puts elves on a pedestal, never daring to breath a bad word about them, that it was quite pleasurable to read something new and different and never seen before.



Also, as a lore geek, I feel the need to correct some glaring misconceptions made in this thread:

Elves are not the only trolls in Kalimdor. Not only did the troll race originate on Kalimdor (the primordial continent which consists of present-day Kalimdor, Northrend, Lordaeron, Azeroth, the eastern kingdoms in general, undermine, the Maelstrom, the great seas, and everything inbetween) but they came from a section of old Kalimdor which today is on the new, broken Kalimdor. The ancestral home of the trolls did not disappear beneath the waves, nor is it anywhere near the Eastern Kingdoms. The first trolls came from a place near Mount Hyjal, in those forests. There even is a village of the pure-blood descendants from these original trolls between Darkshore and Moonglade (no longer accessible, though still visible)

Trolls spread out over just about every corner of the supercontinent of Kalimdor from this point, evolving into all of the various troll subspecies. It was one of these subspecies, the Amani Forest Trolls, from which an outcast band emerged that travelled to the center of the continent and discovered the Well of Eternity, and mutated into the first Elves.

Even today, after the bastard mutant trolls...excuse me...Elves... nearly blew up the world, there are still trolls living on every continent and most islands, even on the now-reduced area of land called Kalimdor. There are Sand Trolls in Tanaris, with an entire instance devoted solely to them, as well as Dark Trolls in the Nelf lands, plus the Jungle Trolls who migrated to Durotar with the Orcs.
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Medros



Joined: 03 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, hell, I missed all the good lore argument. I love a good lore argument.

Good addition to the story, Albatros, and I really did enjoy the few bits that made me laugh. as many did, such as the bug bit.

Now to my thoughts on the lore. Yes, the only true trolls are the ones we cannot even get to, between darkshore and Hyjal or moonglade. The rest are off shoots and such. The Kaldorei found the well, and named themselves the Kaldorei, who later caused the Sundering, which split the world, and caused the Maelstrom, the areas of Khaz Modan, Lordaeron, on what we now call Azeorth Continentaly(not to be confused with Azeroth as a world), and they later sent away the magically addicted of their people, who renamed themselves the High Elves, who later fought a bunch of trolls, before founding Quel'Thalas, and then fighting trolls again, bringing them into contact with the humans, Dwarves, and possibly gnomes, though there is precious little lore about what the hell the gnomes are, and where they came from.

The orcs came, the elves left the alliance, and then later the orcs were beaten back, humans retook Stormwind, which was Orc occupied for a time(and I must say, it looks amazing for having been destroyed in recent memory), the orcs were defeated and put into internment camps up by Southshore area. One Orc child, son of a chieftain named Durotan, was taken into captivity by a human, who planned to raise him for his own nefarious purposes(he planned to take control of the Alliance by force and threat), but he, Thrall, later escaped, and learned of his people, of his bloodlines, and became, through death and skill, the new Warchief of the Horde.

In the Third War, Jaina and Thrall were told by 'The Prophet' aka Medivh, The Last Guardian, to go across the ocean to Kalimdor, which brought the Night Elves into 'known history' and led humanity to find out what happened in the past, with the Sundering, the first entrance of the Legion onto Azeroth, and why the Orcs were made to come here. Might I just intercede here and say that if I were the humans, I'd think I had a number of grievances with these new found people who nearly destroyed the world, and brought the Orcs and Legion down on their heads, killing thousands with the plague.

Now the Night Elves are part of the Alliance the High Elves left, and the Blood Elves(nee High Elves) are going to be returning to the 'known history' when we get the Dark Portal open, and joining the Horde, which includes trolls, their ancestors and hated enemies of old. Whew.

Oh, and Albatros, loved the Loremaster line. I admire Caydiem for her mastery of the lore, and loved to see people try to tell her she was wrong. At least we know that in 7 centuries, she'll be wrong. Wink
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Saranus



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, where did you find out that the first trolls originated at Mt. Hyjal.
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