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The "mistake" of Varimathras
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Saranus



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 836

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cangjku wrote:
I think it was decided at that time that Albatros was refrencing the destruction of racial barriers and the last chapter reinforces that thought in my mind.


Not exactly regretting destroying the racial barrier because I think everyone thinks that is a good thing: a tauren and a dwarf being able to sit down and share a beer in a public place and no one get killed. The thing they regret is that everyone lost their pride, both personal and racial. Togetherness is good, but so is remembering where you came from. It's good to be able to be together and have peace with one another, but how much is it really worth if no one has or cares about where they came from. Imagine if you met several people from several differnent countries and walks of life and their journeys were all the same. It would be boring and sort of pointless. That's a compelling thought seeing as how Horse ran away from home and forsook his heritage. So I think Horse's journey is mirrored with the sentiment of personal, racial, and also sentient pride. At the same time that he realizes and achieves these things, he is helping the world at large do the same thing.
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Fat squirrel



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 347
Location: A splendid place with a delightful selection of delectable dishes.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This raises in me a question. When will Horse return home and face his people? We still don't know why he left in the first place. I've been waiting for a long time for that to be revealed...
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Stutter



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Minnesota... wishing it was Wisconsin

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, just becuase I was feeding the addiction last nite (new toon on Thorium Brotherhood!) I visited the Royal Quarter in the UnderCity and it hit me. Wouldn't the Dark Lady know something about why Varimathras was put into the Frozen Tomb? In the past he was an ally of the Horde, or at least an ally to the Forsaken. He was the Dark Lady's Lieutenant, after all. What happened to get him entombed?

*wild speculation ensues*

Maybe the rest of the allies doubted the loyalty of Varimathras, or that of Lady Sylvannas, and got rid of him? That would certainly put some distance between the Forsaken and the rest of the allies. Perhaps it was against her will, but she agreed to complicity to safeguard the Forsaken. I can't imagine the Forsaken thinking they didn't need all the help they could get in defending themselves, but maybe the rest of the lot insisted he be put away. We know that the Humans, hell everybody, are not particularly fond or trusting of the Forsaken.

Of course he could just be the bad guy.

I prefer to think this Varimathras thing is like Optimus Prime.*

Yay speculation!

S.
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Slashtrain



Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 900
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stutter wrote:
Ok, just becuase I was feeding the addiction last nite (new toon on Thorium Brotherhood!) I visited the Royal Quarter in the UnderCity and it hit me. Wouldn't the Dark Lady know something about why Varimathras was put into the Frozen Tomb? In the past he was an ally of the Horde, or at least an ally to the Forsaken. He was the Dark Lady's Lieutenant, after all. What happened to get him entombed?

*wild speculation ensues*

Maybe the rest of the allies doubted the loyalty of Varimathras, or that of Lady Sylvannas, and got rid of him? That would certainly put some distance between the Forsaken and the rest of the allies. Perhaps it was against her will, but she agreed to complicity to safeguard the Forsaken. I can't imagine the Forsaken thinking they didn't need all the help they could get in defending themselves, but maybe the rest of the lot insisted he be put away. We know that the Humans, hell everybody, are not particularly fond or trusting of the Forsaken.

Of course he could just be the bad guy.

I prefer to think this Varimathras thing is like Optimus Prime.*

Yay speculation!

S.


Actually Varimathras wasn't Lady Sylvanas's lieutenant in the purest sense. Being a lieutenant or second-in-command connotes being in a state of trust, like a best friend. In The Frozen Throne, Varithmathras was forced against his will to ally himself with Sylvanas because she gave him an ultimatum: Join her or die. So, most likely, he was just helping the Forsaken until there was an opening for him to regain his freedom and gain more power, which he did, apparently, by overthrowing Arthas and becoming the new Lich King.

Your speculation is nice, but you forgot to remember that people aren't always allies out of their own will. Varimathras was basically Sylvanas's b*tch because she was holding a very sharp and deadly axe right over his neck.

The question shouldn't be, "What happened between Varimathras and the Forsaken that he would betray them?" but rather "What happened that allowed Varimathras the opportunity to escape the clutches of his captors and take command of the Scourge?"
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Amaunator



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even more: "How come Varimathras came close to having enough power to overrule Arthas, while he wasn't even capable enough of overpowering Sylvanas, who was no match to the Lich King (or rather, Lich Arthas).
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Slinken



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its quite simple really, the law is trying to restore balance to the world. The entire world was living a boring meaningless existence with nothing to do but live, and that wasnt a very interesting prospect with life being easy. So everything fell into corruption, Varimathras is freed in order to restore large scale conflict thereby restoring loyalty and adding meaning to the lives of everyone else who has to unite to defeat the threat.
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Stutter



Joined: 26 Sep 2005
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Location: Minnesota... wishing it was Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slinken wrote:
Its quite simple really, the law is trying to restore balance to the world. The entire world was living a boring meaningless existence ... everything fell into corruption, Varimathras is freed in order to restore large scale conflict thereby restoring loyalty and adding meaning...


I don't know. Things seemed pretty balanced before the Law closed up shop. It may have been boring, but the races were getting along and some were even living together. There was no open war. It was only after the Law vanished that chaos ensued and many innocents got caught in the crossfire. Being at war or being unified against a common enemy aren't the only things that can make life meaningful.

Nothing in this story has been simple. The motives of the Law been anything but simple. It was Fangtooth, after all, that ensured Varimathras was freed.

I hope the world had to be prepared for something. Maybe it was for Varimathras to be freed, maybe not. That something is still unclear to me.

If the Law did all of this for meaningful lives and racial "pride", I'll be disappointed.

Of course, it could be quite simple.

S.
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Amaunator



Joined: 03 Dec 2005
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Location: Belgium ... innocuous but intrepid!

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it's closer to home than we thought?

Fang said in the first book that he got tired of his bureaucratic job...

Well, maybe all of the Law thought so. Therefore they want to inspire people now to take matters in their own hands again, to let people become autonomous again. But if racial pride would be a result of setting free Varimathras to inspire people, then we're back where we were 600 years ago...

Maybe Varimathras wasn't the mistake, maybe the fact that they took over every role of importance and downsized everybody became just too boring and life was much more fun before? Smile
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Tellur



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we are asuming that the law is allmighty...
maybe the law was aware, that something was in the air (a new invasion of the burning legion maybe?) and found, that the world in his letargy wouldn't be able to face it, even WITH the Law still on top.
So they decided to bring back a weaker, but still strong enemy back, to reinforce the world, before the BIG BAD GUY could arrive.
Then together (world + Law) they could face it.

Maybe there are two sides on freeing Varimathras:
Freeing the blue moon could have brought back powers to the world that where missing during his absence: the grace of elune or something like that.
And there I think the dwarf and the gnome come in: they did travel the north of Kali
What's there?
Right...
The nightelvens...
And whom do they worship?
Right again...
The godness of the moon - Elune

What if they all are still there?
Tyrande, Malfurion, Remulos and maybe even Eranikus and those green dragonflight?
Ever seen Tyrande fighting Eranikus in WoW?
Ragnaros/Nefarian are poor N00bs against them...

Btw. what's the Law? I think it could be the Creators/Titans
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Exodus



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I gathered from what Katy M said was something higher up, like God or something (if you're religious) so that nobody has seen it and nobody really knew what it was doing.

Aside from this, I like the theory of a bigger thing about to happen, like the Burning Legion. The world at the start was sorta in nuetral mode, coasting, but if a bigger enemy were to come they'd get stomped so maybe they'll have the people fight Varimathras for a little bit - enough to mobilize their armies - and then time it so at the height of the world's military strength the Burning Legion invades and they're ready for it.

Also, if they forsaken can dissapear the nightelves definately can, I hope to see them back soon Razz.
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lordmurray



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally don't beleive that this is nessisarily to give everyone a common cause or common enemy, I think horse has been set on a path bye fang and M (and only fang and M) that none of the members of the law know about. i think we are asking the wrong questions...

WHY did they bring horse to orcmar when they knew he had enemies there... why not stormwind again...

WHY did they fill his bag with supplies...

IF fang can control minds, does M have control of hers...

WHY did the dwarf and gnome target horse...

I personaly think the argent dawn beleive that they sent horse and co. to retreive the book. Fang wanted the book for himself to use and M couldn't help but help fang. Horse is on his way home to find himself (or should i say the rest of himself resto/balance side) then he's gona return and start fixing the world! and he can, not cause hes the toughest or the strongest, but because he has all the right friends!

after all it isn't what you know when you go into a raid... its who you know...
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lordmurray



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exodus wrote:
What I gathered from what Katy M said was something higher up, like God or something (if you're religious) so that nobody has seen it and nobody really knew what it was doing.

Aside from this, I like the theory of a bigger thing about to happen, like the Burning Legion. The world at the start was sorta in nuetral mode, coasting, but if a bigger enemy were to come they'd get stomped so maybe they'll have the people fight Varimathras for a little bit - enough to mobilize their armies - and then time it so at the height of the world's military strength the Burning Legion invades and they're ready for it.

Also, if they forsaken can dissapear the nightelves definately can, I hope to see them back soon Razz.


this theory troubles me. The law is taking a big risk pitting an experience dreadlord against a dieing civilization held togeather bye fear... not to mention the lack of passion for living. The losses from the first could be fatal even without a bigger enemy to follow.

there are to many what ifs to decide on anything

PS i think fang is alot more powerful than alba is letting on,
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Exodus



Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that Fang is NOT controlling M, that'd be a bit too crazy. Also I think that, being the good author that he is, the bird would have given us at least a bit of foreshadowing that M was under control such as her maybe breaking off for a bit when she was alone with Horse some time. You can't just let these things happen, you need to make people think, "maybe THIS is gonna happen..."
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lordmurray



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exodus wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Fang is NOT controlling M, that'd be a bit too crazy. Also I think that, being the good author that he is, the bird would have given us at least a bit of foreshadowing that M was under control such as her maybe breaking off for a bit when she was alone with Horse some time. You can't just let these things happen, you need to make people think, "maybe THIS is gonna happen..."


did alba not do than when fang was controling horse? its good enough for me...
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Alec



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well when Fang was controlling Horse, we could tell that he was controllig him. So far we really don't have any reason to think he's controlling M other than the fact that he can control minds.
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